Exclusive interview with the Ambassador of Switzerland to Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova Félix Baumann to the Interfax-Ukraine News Agency

Text: Valerie Proshchenko, Yegor Boltryk

 

Recently, it was reported that Switzerland supported the Brazilian-Chinese “peace plan.” The Ukrainian side is disappointed by this, given that the First Global Peace Summit was held in Switzerland, and the country participates in thematic conferences on specific points of the Peace Formula. Can you explain the logic behind this decision?

Thank you for the question. I'm glad to be able to explain our position. I think there was a kind of misunderstanding. So firstly, Switzerland did not join or did not subscribe to the final communiqué of this meeting that was held by China and Brazil at the end of September in New York. Secondly, we attended the meeting but as observers. And third, yes, we did not change our position. The Swiss stance remains absolutely clear: any solution in response to the Russian full-scale military aggression against Ukraine must fully respect international law, the United Nations Charter, and in particular territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine.

We believe that it is worth considering all peace plans that actually respect international law, the United Nations Charter, territorial integrity, and sovereignty.

And it was even reflected in the final communiqué of the first Summit on Peace in Ukraine in Switzerland in June: “This summit was built on the previous discussions that have taken place based on Ukraine's Peace Formula and other peace proposals which are in line with international law, including the UN Charter”.

So, it's a bit in line with this position that the Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs decided to attend, again, as an observer of this meeting.

This decision was taken because we believe it's important to talk about peace in a situation where we have a war that causes immense suffering and victims. And that's exactly also what we did in June at the Bürgenstock in the end, when we gathered a broad range of countries precisely to discuss the prospects for a peace process. But again, let me say, once again, our position has not changed. Nothing on Ukraine shall be decided without Ukraine.

After the first Peace Summit at the Bürgenstock announced its intention to inform Russia about its results. Did any contacts occur or are you going to communicate with Russia ahead of the second Peace Summit?

Well, we have informed several key countries about the outcome of the Summit on Peace in Ukraine at the Bürgenstock. Switzerland is in touch with many countries in the world. We are not aware of specific preparations for the second Peace Summit, but we know about sectoral meetings on points of the Peace Formula as a follow-up of the First Summit on Peace in Ukraine. We follow closely all discussions about the efforts of the Ukrainian authorities on the Summit. We are in close contact with them, and we certainly would be ready to support Ukraine in the preparation of the Second Summit.

So you had contacts with Russians about the first Peace Summit?

As I said, we are in contact with quite many countries. We inform them about the outcome of the first Summit on Peace at the Bürgenstock.

Let's talk about the Swiss’s support of Ukraine. There was information that the Committee on Security Policy of the Swiss National Council wants to allow the supply of weapons to Ukraine under certain conditions. Do you think that it’s possible at all? Under what conditions can Switzerland reconsider its refusal to allow the use of Swiss weapons?

Switzerland is a neutral country, but neutrality does not mean indifference. That's why we do support Ukraine in many fields. When it comes to the export of weapons, also the re-export of war material, Switzerland is bound by the law (it is called the War Materials Act), and at the same time, we are bound by the principle of equal treatment in neutrality law. And it's a legal reason why we cannot consent to the re-export of war material to Ukraine.

But there are deliberations in our parliament for a while on how to find a solution to this issue. Several ideas have been discussed in parliament.

Do you have any idea how long it might take to make a decision?

I cannot comment on the parliament's work. They have their own schedule and their procedures. But I would say that parliament has heard that this topic is an important political issue and has been engaged in deliberations in attempts to find a solution.

So in the long run, it's going to take years? Months?

Given that there have been already deliberations for quite a while, we could expect somehow next year that we come to a vote.

Well, then let’s talk about other aid. How Switzerland has been helping Ukraine since 2022, and how much support has already been provided in various areas? What about “Winter support”?

First of all, Switzerland didn't start supporting Ukraine in 2022. We have been in Ukraine for more than 25 years with concrete cooperation projects. It helped us in February 2022 to rapidly adapt our aid to the changing needs because we had our networks and our local partners in the country. We’ve spent about 470 million Swiss francs in the last 2,5 years to support Ukraine and people staying in the country and also additionally we have been supporting Ukrainian refugees in Switzerland. In total, it’s more than 3 billion Swiss francs.

Our areas of support include not only humanitarian assistance but also the rebuilding of houses, roofs, and windows, water purification, and health projects, including mental health, digitalization and decentralization, urban mobility and energy efficiency. Demining is one of our priorities, as well as support of small and middle-sized businesses. We also have colleagues, working on peace and human rights. As you know, Switzerland supports big projects with multilateral agencies, but we also do some direct actions.

I have colleagues from the embassy who travel to the east, and to the south of Ukraine (close to the frontline) every week. It helps us to have a very targeted, efficient approach that can take into account the needs of those who need help.

As you mentioned, we are coming to the winter now, and we do winterization efforts. We work on two levels. One is to support the Ukrainian authorities' calls, for example, with energy projects (it includes help with transformers, generators, etc). And we support local partners with small cash allowances, clothes, food, and water.

And also we know that Switzerland helps a lot Ukraine in decentralization reform.

Yes, we are working through this Swiss-Ukrainian DECIDE project and Ukraine’s Cohesion & Regional Development Project, UCORD, project on decentralization. Actually, Switzerland has been involved in this for 17 years, even before the adoption of the decentralization law. When I talk to experts and communities, everybody says that decentralization helped the country in its early response to the Russian military aggression. I also try to get out of the capital as much as I can and see different realities and needs in different regions.

Another huge area of your efforts is digitalization. What stage is the support for this industry at now?

Yes, we support digitalization through a Swiss-Ukrainian program EGAP. It’s a crucial area because we see that support of digitalization helps not only many reforms but entire segments of society. It helps to provide citizens with efficient public services and to curb corruption, as well as to increase trust between the citizens and the authorities. I think that's key in a democracy. Recently, the Swiss Federal Council approved funding of 58.7 million Swiss francs on digitalization of Ukraine through EGAP till 2028.

Look at Diia or Mriya, those projects actually were supported by Switzerland too. And I think that's an absolute breakthrough that Ukraine can be proud of. I suppose we can learn a lot from Ukraine in this field.

Shed some light on the situation with Russia's frozen assets. In the summer, the European Union (EU) announced the release of €1.5 billion in aid to Ukraine. This marks the first installment from the profits generated by Russian assets frozen in response to the war. Media reported that Switzerland will not follow the EU's approach. Is it true? Tell us a little bit about this.

Firstly, there are two distinctions between Russian frozen private assets and state assets. Last year, we made a thorough analysis, and we came to the conclusion that the expropriation of private assets of licit origin, without compensation would not be permitted. It would be contrary to our federal constitution, and also to the international obligations of Switzerland, that's one point.

Then when it comes to the sovereign Russian assets, state assets, they are immobilized. We immobilized 8.5 billion dollars of state assets in Switzerland. And Switzerland is closely following the discussions that are going on at the international level when it comes to using the extraordinary profits from the custody of these assets, so-called windfall profits. Switzerland always says that any solution has to fully respect the rule of law.

And also I would like to add that those sovereign assets that are immobilized in Switzerland (8.5 billion dollars), they do not generate extraordinary profits or windfall profits as they are defined by the EU or G7. They are actually held by commercial banks in Switzerland.

Switzerland is actively imposing sanctions against Russian companies and individuals. How do you assess the effectiveness of these sanctions, and will this process continue?

Yes, Switzerland decided just after the start of the Russian full-scale military aggression to adopt the sanctions decided by the EU. The effectiveness of the sanctions and the international coordination on that matter is very important to the Swiss government. We have close cooperation with international partners and especially with like-minded countries to ensure the effectiveness of the implementation of the sanctions. And we will continue to do it.

What has changed for Switzerland since the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine?

We see that we live in a hugely challenging world. No one could imagine that we would have a war on the European continent. We see that the multilateral system and the whole rules-based order are under pressure. And for a country like Switzerland, small-sized and export-oriented, international law and the rules-based order are of vital importance.

On the other hand, many refugees came from Ukraine to Switzerland. I think the Swiss population has shown great solidarity with Ukrainians. And it is continuing. The special status for protection for Ukrainian refugees in Switzerland has been extended until March 4, 2026. There are currently about 66,000 Ukrainian refugees in Switzerland. The number has been stable for the last year. And about 25% of them are in the labor market. The government hopes to increase this number to 40%. There are three main obstacles to the employment and job search of Ukrainian refugees in Switzerland. The first is the non-recognition of Ukrainian diplomas in Switzerland. The second problem is the lack of knowledge of the national languages ​​of Switzerland. And the third, and perhaps the most important, is that potential Swiss employers and Ukrainian refugees looking for work do not know each other.

What is Switzerland's attitude to Ukraine's calls to facilitate the return of its citizens, especially those liable for military service?

I know that some talks exist in some countries about not providing social benefits to Ukrainian men. But I think all such differentiations are extremely difficult to put into practice. In Switzerland, the status for protection applies to any Ukrainian, independently of gender. But we have a dilemma in general. On one hand, our policy has always been aimed at the return of refugees to Ukraine at some point, as we know that Ukraine needs its citizens back home to participate in the reconstruction of their country. But at the same time, the integration of people, and especially children, into Swiss society is also important.

Do you think that attention to Ukraine and support for Ukraine can be reduced after the situation in Israel and with Iran?

The world is full of conflicts and the needs outweigh by far what is available in assistance.

But Ukraine is a priority for the Swiss government. This is stated in our foreign policy strategy for the next four years. The Swiss government expressed its intention to allocate 5 billion Swiss francs for the next 12 years to restore Ukraine. So that's really a long-term commitment. And Switzerland is planning to allocate 1.5 billion Swiss francs ($1.7 billion) for reconstruction projects in Ukraine over the next four years. This is still pending parliamentary approval. We hope to get it by the end of the year, and that would be for the period 2025-2028.

Furthermore, we also nominated a special representative or delegate of the Swiss Government for recovery in Ukraine a few weeks ago. It’s a special post, a high-level post. He will start in January next year.

Switzerland to host a conference on mine action in Ukraine (UMAC2024) on October 17 and 18 in Lausanne. What are your expectations for this event? What is its main purpose?

Humanitarian demining is a very central topic for Ukraine because it's the basis for social and economic recovery. The goal of the conference in Lausanne is to keep the focus of the international community on the situation of the needs in Ukraine. That's the first step. Then it's also to share experiences. And the most important is to foster long-term support for Ukraine. We prepare together with Ukraine the “Lausanne Call for Action”. We hope that it will be a strong document for paving the way forward.

For Switzerland, it's an important topic because demining is the first step of recovery. It will help to unblock land as fast as possible for agricultural use, re-boost exports, and create jobs.

At the end of September 2023, the Federal Council approved a package of 100 million Swiss francs dedicated solely to mine action in Ukraine. I suppose we are one of the most important contributors to this specific topic. It includes “classical” demining, on the ground, by people.

We do it through the Fondation Suisse de Déminage (FSD). Many of their employees here are local, Ukrainians. FSD has two big projects with our funds, one in Kharkiv oblast. And now they started also a project in Kherson oblast this year.

Moreover, we have a center of competence in Geneva, which is called the Geneva International Center for Humanitarian Demining. They advise the Ukrainian government on best practices, the international standards of mine action, etc. And Switzerland is also delivering necessary demining machines to SESU, especially. The company that delivers them is a Swiss company. And they also have a maintenance facility here, what’s important.

We're also supporting an important project on the demining of agricultural lands implemented by the Food and Agriculture Organization and World Food Program.

I would like to know about the reconstruction of Ukraine. Switzerland hosted the first Ukraine Recovery Conference (URC2022). How does Switzerland see the recovery and how are your businesses involved in the reconstruction process now?

We had the joint Economic Commission last week in Kyiv. It was the 14th session and the first one since the end of 2021. We had a delegation from our side coming to Ukraine together with representatives of Swiss business. Most of the companies that had been in Ukraine before 2022 have stayed in Ukraine after the Russian full-scale military aggression. And I'm really impressed by their resilience and work. For example, one company established a social fund of 1 million Swiss francs for their employees. And I heard from many companies that they are doing that. So, that’s impressive how these companies tried to keep jobs, they still pay taxes, and help their employees.

As I mentioned before, we have a package of 1.5 billion Swiss francs on recovery for the next four years that is pending parliamentary approval. It will start early next year. And of course, in reconstruction, we need the involvement of the private sector. There we will be doing several measures.

The first step is to involve those Swiss companies that are already present in Ukraine. They have to respond to an acute need of the Ukrainian side.  Also, we hope that companies maintain and possibly even increase the number of jobs in Ukraine. We support, for example, companies' projects that are aiming for technical and vocational training, and education. In Switzerland, it’s very important, by the way. Two-thirds of young people in Switzerland go not to university, but to technical vocational training. And we also are trying to promote it in Ukraine.

What about war risks? How much does this deter business from coming to Ukraine?

Two big Swiss companies are already making big investments in Ukraine. They have two new factories, and it’s a huge production in the Western part of Ukraine. So, they are already in the country. Yes, for others there are still some challenges.  And one of them is how to mitigate risks. The war risk insurance is still an issue that we have to work on.

But I’m confident that Switzerland has companies in fields that are of interest to Ukraine or for the needs of Ukraine. Early next year, we are planning to organize a high-level  “fact-finding mission” with CEOs of Swiss companies that are interested in Ukraine’s reconstruction process.

Also we heard that there are some ideas on Ukrainian refugees who work in Swiss companies.

It’s just thoughts for now, but yes, there is one idea. For example, Swiss companies that employ Ukrainian refugees in Switzerland could also consider the possibility of providing Ukrainians with jobs in this company in Ukraine too. I mean, some companies could be frightened to invest in training or upskilling refugees because they don’t know when this person will leave the country.  So, maybe one idea could be if one day refugees can go back to Ukraine and continue to work for the same Swiss companies in Ukraine.